Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11
Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on.
Partially true but not universally true. This is like saying Jazz is African American music and classical is white music. You’re flattening these things into a very binary categorization. These are not binary categories like this. There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many more options and honestly I’m worried there’s a push you radicalize the left against even considering it after seeing many comments here.
An example of the top of my head is cooperatives. We don’t need public ownership of factories and production. We can restructure capitalism and how it works so it is more socialized. Worker owned business. Change the laws. Change how corporations are structured when they go public. Change investing laws since faceless stakeholders is a primary cause of a lot of issues we face.
The options are not capitalism or socialism. That seems like it’s a toxic pill that’s being pushed in the community. I really advise people to consider there’s potentially some radicalization occurring in certain corners. Remember they have a lot of power to push ideas and kill others. If we all know Cambridge and Koch brothers and heritage foundations are out there manipulating things online, maybe it’s important to be careful of dominant opinions in the niche corners as they grow.
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.
Quote: “Social liberalism is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights…”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centre to centre-left, although there are deviations from these positions to both the political left or right. In modern political discourse, social liberalism is associated with progressivism, a left-liberalism contrasted to the right-leaning neoliberalism, and combines support for a mixed economy with cultural liberalism.”
Quote: “Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large‑scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom.”
Source: Pew Research Center – Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology
Quote: “Holding liberal positions on nearly all issues, Establishment Liberals are some of the strongest supporters of the current president and the Democratic Party of any political typology group.”
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
Are you guys being serious right now? This is insane. Liberal values are left of center.
Which century are you from? 18th?
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
citation needed
This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)
And you are presuming the discussions being had are about capitalism when they are still debating the role of the government in private ownership.
It’s a eurocentric position. It’s odd how many “leftists” fall into this.
oh my god we get it you learned the word ‘presume’ last week
Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Lol the socialists stole the “left” from you
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
No.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.
Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you’re about 150 years late in defining liberalism as “the left”
Can you show me where private property is categorically right leaning and not left
Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Partially true but not universally true. This is like saying Jazz is African American music and classical is white music. You’re flattening these things into a very binary categorization. These are not binary categories like this. There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many more options and honestly I’m worried there’s a push you radicalize the left against even considering it after seeing many comments here.
An example of the top of my head is cooperatives. We don’t need public ownership of factories and production. We can restructure capitalism and how it works so it is more socialized. Worker owned business. Change the laws. Change how corporations are structured when they go public. Change investing laws since faceless stakeholders is a primary cause of a lot of issues we face.
The options are not capitalism or socialism. That seems like it’s a toxic pill that’s being pushed in the community. I really advise people to consider there’s potentially some radicalization occurring in certain corners. Remember they have a lot of power to push ideas and kill others. If we all know Cambridge and Koch brothers and heritage foundations are out there manipulating things online, maybe it’s important to be careful of dominant opinions in the niche corners as they grow.
Because that is the status quo. Leftism is about progressing onto the next mode of production, not stagnating or regressing, which is right-wing.
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
Currently the world is condemning the liberals for doing a genocide
😆
Do you even read bro
Yes I read. Like how I read that Wikipedia link and the other supporting links and references I’ve posted. All saying liberalism is left.
We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do.
No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.
Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts
we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center.
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.
Source: Wikipedia – Social liberalism
Quote: “Social liberalism is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights…”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centre to centre-left, although there are deviations from these positions to both the political left or right. In modern political discourse, social liberalism is associated with progressivism, a left-liberalism contrasted to the right-leaning neoliberalism, and combines support for a mixed economy with cultural liberalism.”
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
Source: Simple English Wikipedia – Social liberalism
Quote: “Social liberalism … endorses a regulated market economy and the expansion of civil and political rights.”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centrist or centre-left"
Link: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
Source: Britannica – Liberalism
Quote: “Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large‑scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom.”
Link: https://www.britannica.com/question/How-does-modern-liberalism-differ-from-conservatism
Source: Cambridge Dictionary – Liberalism
Quote: “Liberal political ideas emphasize the need to make new laws as society changes and the need for government to provide social services.”
Link: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english-russian/liberal
Source: Pew Research Center – Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology
Quote: “Holding liberal positions on nearly all issues, Establishment Liberals are some of the strongest supporters of the current president and the Democratic Party of any political typology group.”
Link: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology-2/
deleted by creator
You are factually incorrect.
Definitely am not. I have plenty of supporting links. You all have … Comments
My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous.
And I told you, you posted a link to classic liberalism. It is a subset of liberalism it is not liberalism
No. We’re right. You’ve been given references. Just because you obstinantly ignore those references does not make you correct or smart.
No I’m right I gave references, nobody has provided anything that has shown that liberalism is right
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
You’re arguing with people on lemmy.ml.
I got nothing better going on.
Just good to keep in mind you’re arguing with communists about idelogy.
Wow. Helping someone for free. Terrible at being a lib.
😆 I appreciate that. Thank you