it shows therapy failing to prevent harm. It shows a systemic failure that you refuse to accept.
It doesn’t, it shows men in all countries reportedly committing suicide at a higher rate. You inferred that from nothing. Why are women’s numbers so much lower? They don’t succeed in therapy more. They do attend more. If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure? Where’s the massive number of women committing suicide. Surely you believe more women commit suicide? (More women attend therapy, therapy is a failure) We have a split on gender lines that outcome of therapy (we know are qual) do not explain. With sources please. It isn’t outcome, it’s income.
We need to get mem comfortable with therepy.
You didn’t say we need to make therapy comfortable for men. You said we need to make men comfortable with therapy. You described the problem as being on the side of the patient, rather than on the side of the system. You continued:
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men? There is evidence, that when men attend therapy, theres little difference in result between men and women. You have inferred that therapy, in itself, is uncomfotable for men from nothing.
There is also evidence that men do not attend therapy at the same rate as women. Hence: we need to get men comfortable with therapy. I go on to justify why I think men are uncomfortable with therapy hence:
I know, toxic masculinity says “Real men don’t talk about their problems”.
Didn’t bother to discover any of their concerns. Didn’t bother to determine the validity of those concerns. Didn’t validate their feelings on the subject; just dismissed them entirely.
What do you think toxic masculinity is? It’s all of that. It’s the pressures that society places on men in that result in toxic outcomes. We agree men committing suicide at a ludicrously high rate is a toxic outcome? Their concerns? I am a man, they’re my concerns. Men are concerned with going to therapy. We need to get them comfortable with the idea. Because therapy works, we don’t attend as much as we should, and vulnerable men die because of it.
None of that is victim blaming. Smashing gender norms will get men comfortable with therapy. No blaming the individual man necessary.
I’m satisfied you’re lie is a spurious link. My counter examples are direct.
You didn’t say that therapy was as effective as sitting at home and masturbating?
[…] In response, I asked whether therapy was better than neutral alternatives. Obviously, it’s better than direct harm. I asked whether it was better than a placebo. I asked whether therapy was better than chronic masturbation, among several other neutral, non-harmful alternatives.
You did ask that. But we’ve known for over a decade that it is better. JAQing off whether therapy is better than Jacking off is suggesting therapy is as effective as a placebo. We know it isn’t. If you weren’t JAQing off, having just learned you are over a decade behind why didn’t you transition to learning mode. Who finds out they’re a decade behind, and continues to argue a position they just learned is a decade out of date.
Stop dismissing their concerns. Stop alienating them. Start listening. Start fixing the system so that it adequately addresses their concerns. Stop blaming their “toxic masculinity”, start validating their concerns.
I don’t dismiss their concerns. I show evidence to counter them. Is therapy effective for men? Yes, here’s a link. Is it more effective than jacking off? Yes here’s a link. I have to listen to their concerns to counter them. I’ve told you many times that I am trying to fix the system.
You don’t understand toxic masculinity. A man doesn’t have toxic masculinity, a man experiences pressure to perform in masculinity in ways that can lead to toxic outcomes. Like suicide. We call these pressures toxic masculinity “TM”. With that clarified does that explain some things? You heard a term you didn’t understand. You inferred some nonsense from nothing. You then gave me a hard time for your misunderstanding.
Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance use disorders.
See: graph
The reference to TM was purely to tell people that know why not to waste time talking to me about why. The “why” doesn’t matter, it didn’t help you at all to learn it. It’s decades of feminist theory, 3 actually that’s how far you are behind, and this is a Lemmy thread.
The “what” does matter, the “what” we need to do is get men into pathways that lead to positive outcomes. Therapy is one. Parallel to therapy, you are welcome to suggest another (you haven’t). But do not suggest therapy is in anyway similar to a placebo, you’re merely reinforcing the pressure men already have to not seek it.
All these people killing themselves aren’t indicative of any sort of problem with “the system”. They’re responsible for their own deaths, because they refuse to accept what you know to be true.
All these people killing themselves aren’t indicative of any sort of problem with “the system”.
Not what I said. It’s just not “therapy” that is the “system” they’re being failed by. Could you take your own advice and start listening please?
You are right, men are being failed by a system though. Read some of the sources. Read the wiki on TM, you’ll find it. It’s a distraction from this conversation though, and given your reaction to the term TM, I don’t think it would be a productive discussion anyway. But the system men are being failed by has also been discussed for 30+ years.
Genuinely, please start listening. It’s frustrating having to say things umpteen times. It’s frustrating having you interpret my words in the least charitable way possible. Listen for a bit. Your ideas are very, very out of date. It’s time to do some learning.
But the system men are being failed by has also been discussed for 30+ years.
The system alienates men. 30+ years after realizing that, your first thought isn’t “The system is the problem. How do we make the system more appealing to men?”.
The very first thing you have to say about it is “The men are the problem. How do we make the men more appealing to the system?”.
And I don’t just mean you personally. That hostile attitude pervades the whole field. When confronted with complaints that this overt hostility is uncomfortable, off-putting, and alienating, double down. Force the patient to choose between submission or retreat, then act all surprised at the ones who never come back.
Please listen I’ll just copy and paste some relevent points. I could have copy pasted the last comment too.
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men? There is evidence, that when men attend therapy, theres little difference in result between men and women. You have inferred that therapy, in itself, is uncomfotable for men from nothing.
It doesn’t, it shows men in all countries reportedly committing suicide at a higher rate. You inferred that from nothing. Why are women’s numbers so much lower? They don’t succeed in therapy more. They do attend more. If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure? Where’s the massive number of women committing suicide. Surely you believe more women commit suicide? (More women attend therapy, therapy is a failure) We have a split on gender lines that outcome of therapy (we know are qual) do not explain. With sources please. It isn’t outcome, it’s income.
Not what I said. It’s just not “therapy” that is the “system” they’re being failed by.
You are right, men are being failed by a system though. Read some of the sources. Read the wiki on TM, you’ll find it. It’s a distraction from this conversation though, and given your reaction to the term TM, I don’t think it would be a productive discussion anyway. But the system men are being failed by has also been discussed for 30+ years.
Wrong question. The right question is “how are we failing women too?”
If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure?
The systemic failure is what you were describing in your first two paragraphs in this thread.
There is evidence, that when men attend therapy,
Men don’t attend therapy at the rates you think they should. Men are highly resistant to what you are offering.
Your proffered solution to that isn’t to make your offering more palatable. Your solution is to blame them and tell them to suck it up.
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men?
The fact that men are actively choosing not to attend therapy at the rates you seem to think they should is prima facie evidence that therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men.
Instead of accepting, internalizing, and taking responsibility for that fact, the field outsources blame for it to men.
Me: “Little Jonny isn’t eating his vegetables.”
You: “Boys who eat their vegetables enjoy them about as much as girls who eat their vegetables”.
Me: “Yeah, but little Johnny isn’t eating his.”
You: “What did I just tell you? Boys who eat their vegetables report they like them at similar rates as girls”.
Me: “That’s great, but we aren’t talking about a boy who eats his vegetables. We’re talking about a boy who chooses not to. He doesn’t like vegetables.”
You: “He’s just experiencing social toxicicity. If he tried them, he’d like them.”
Me: “He has tried them. He doesn’t like them. And he’s getting pretty pissed off that you keep ignoring him when he tells you he doesn’t like them.”
You: “Nonsense. Boys who eat vegetables like them just as much as girls do. Science.”
Me: “Yeah, but little Johnny isn’t a boy who eats vegetables.”
You: “Right. Because he’s got some sort of toxic attitude against vegetables.”
Me: “Or he just doesn’t like what you’re trying to shove down his throat.”
You: “How many times do I have to tell you that boys who eat vegetables like them just as much as girls who eat vegetables?”
Me: “Whatever. Maybe we could try serving something that he might actually enjoy?”
You: “There’s nothing wrong with the vegetables, just keep serving them. When we get rid of his toxic friends, he’ll admit he actually likes his vegetables.”
Me: “…”
You: “I do wonder why aren’t boys eating vegetables as much as girls.”
Wrong question. The right question is “how are we failing women too?”
Wrong, the right observation is "reality doesn’t support my assertions.
Men don’t attend therapy at the rates you think they should. Men are highly resistant to what you are offering.
When I said this you said I was victim blaming. They are, we agree. I said we need to get men into therapy and you got upset with me.
I’ve shown you a reason why men don’t go into therapy, you took some imagined offence. Please God listen. It is well discussed why men do not go to therapy, you only just learned what TM meant yesterday. Now is not the time for your to provide assertions, without evidence, for a concept you just learned about yesterday.
Your proffered solution to that isn’t to make your offering more palatable. Your solution is to blame them and tell them to suck it up.
That’s called a lie. Do better.
Me: “Whatever. Maybe we could try serving something that he might actually enjoy?”
You haven’t done that. Vegetables work for the people they work for.
Vegitables are much better than sitting at home chronicaly masturbating as you JAQed off. We have a society that pressures boys not to eat vegitables. It was foolish of you to suggest. It was harmful of you to suggest when the aim is to get boys eating healthy. That’s bad I would like to releave that pressure.
I like the healthy eating framing. We know healthy eating is just as benefital to little boys as to girls. We know little boys eat less healthy than little girls. We also know society puts pressure on little boys to not eat healthy.
It isn’t society putting pressure on little boys to not eat healthy, there’s just something anti-boy about eating healthy.
It isn’t society putting pressure on little boys to not eat healthy, there’s just something anti-boy about eating healthy.
Turns out Little Johnny doesn’t actually hate vegetables. Turns out all you’re serving is mushy green beans. Turns out he actually likes romaine lettuce and snow peas and carrots and spinach. But you’ve got it stuck in your head that mushy green beans are the only healthy option you can think to offer. Anyone turning up their nose at green beans is simply “unhealthy”.
Motivational Interviewing, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Trauma Therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, Psychiatry Sessions, and more
there isn’t just mushy peas. He is being offered green beans, romain, fennel, all the things.
Turns out all you’re serving is mushy green beans.
This statement is false. Incredibly false. Harmfully false.
But, society tells him little boys don’t eat vegetables so he never trys Romain to find out he likes it.
Other men say that vegetables is as useful as staying at home masturbating. So he never trys Romain to find out he likes it.
Other men tell him all he will be offered is mushy green bean, so he doesn’t even know Romain was an option. He doesn’t try it to know he likes it.
I’m saying let’s get little boys trying vegetables. Let’s get vulnerable men, that would otherwise kills themselves, in therapy. Data shows it works.
Which is more conductive to little Johnny trying vegetables? Me saying we need to get little boys eating vegetables (how does he learn he likes romain without eating one, and vegetables are good for little boys (with provided link)? Or you suggesting it’s as useful as a placebo (not true), and he’ll only be offered mushy green beans (not true)? You want Johnny to discover Romain? Act like it.
I am curious. Which is the only therapy you believe I’m offering. Of all the therapies, which is the one? Why that one? With quotes please. I have mentioned one. But I didn’t even imply it was the only one. You inferred I’m only offering one from nothing.
It doesn’t, it shows men in all countries reportedly committing suicide at a higher rate. You inferred that from nothing. Why are women’s numbers so much lower? They don’t succeed in therapy more. They do attend more. If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure? Where’s the massive number of women committing suicide. Surely you believe more women commit suicide? (More women attend therapy, therapy is a failure) We have a split on gender lines that outcome of therapy (we know are qual) do not explain. With sources please. It isn’t outcome, it’s income.
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men? There is evidence, that when men attend therapy, theres little difference in result between men and women. You have inferred that therapy, in itself, is uncomfotable for men from nothing.
There is also evidence that men do not attend therapy at the same rate as women. Hence: we need to get men comfortable with therapy. I go on to justify why I think men are uncomfortable with therapy hence:
What do you think toxic masculinity is? It’s all of that. It’s the pressures that society places on men in that result in toxic outcomes. We agree men committing suicide at a ludicrously high rate is a toxic outcome? Their concerns? I am a man, they’re my concerns. Men are concerned with going to therapy. We need to get them comfortable with the idea. Because therapy works, we don’t attend as much as we should, and vulnerable men die because of it.
None of that is victim blaming. Smashing gender norms will get men comfortable with therapy. No blaming the individual man necessary.
I’m satisfied you’re lie is a spurious link. My counter examples are direct.
You did ask that. But we’ve known for over a decade that it is better. JAQing off whether therapy is better than Jacking off is suggesting therapy is as effective as a placebo. We know it isn’t. If you weren’t JAQing off, having just learned you are over a decade behind why didn’t you transition to learning mode. Who finds out they’re a decade behind, and continues to argue a position they just learned is a decade out of date.
I don’t dismiss their concerns. I show evidence to counter them. Is therapy effective for men? Yes, here’s a link. Is it more effective than jacking off? Yes here’s a link. I have to listen to their concerns to counter them. I’ve told you many times that I am trying to fix the system.
You don’t understand toxic masculinity. A man doesn’t have toxic masculinity, a man experiences pressure to perform in masculinity in ways that can lead to toxic outcomes. Like suicide. We call these pressures toxic masculinity “TM”. With that clarified does that explain some things? You heard a term you didn’t understand. You inferred some nonsense from nothing. You then gave me a hard time for your misunderstanding.
Link Excerpt:
See: graph
The reference to TM was purely to tell people that know why not to waste time talking to me about why. The “why” doesn’t matter, it didn’t help you at all to learn it. It’s decades of feminist theory, 3 actually that’s how far you are behind, and this is a Lemmy thread.
The “what” does matter, the “what” we need to do is get men into pathways that lead to positive outcomes. Therapy is one. Parallel to therapy, you are welcome to suggest another (you haven’t). But do not suggest therapy is in anyway similar to a placebo, you’re merely reinforcing the pressure men already have to not seek it.
Got it. Therapy works.
All these people killing themselves aren’t indicative of any sort of problem with “the system”. They’re responsible for their own deaths, because they refuse to accept what you know to be true.
Makes perfect sense. Have a nice day.
Not what I said. It’s just not “therapy” that is the “system” they’re being failed by. Could you take your own advice and start listening please?
You are right, men are being failed by a system though. Read some of the sources. Read the wiki on TM, you’ll find it. It’s a distraction from this conversation though, and given your reaction to the term TM, I don’t think it would be a productive discussion anyway. But the system men are being failed by has also been discussed for 30+ years.
Genuinely, please start listening. It’s frustrating having to say things umpteen times. It’s frustrating having you interpret my words in the least charitable way possible. Listen for a bit. Your ideas are very, very out of date. It’s time to do some learning.
The system alienates men. 30+ years after realizing that, your first thought isn’t “The system is the problem. How do we make the system more appealing to men?”.
The very first thing you have to say about it is “The men are the problem. How do we make the men more appealing to the system?”.
And I don’t just mean you personally. That hostile attitude pervades the whole field. When confronted with complaints that this overt hostility is uncomfortable, off-putting, and alienating, double down. Force the patient to choose between submission or retreat, then act all surprised at the ones who never come back.
Please listen I’ll just copy and paste some relevent points. I could have copy pasted the last comment too.
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men? There is evidence, that when men attend therapy, theres little difference in result between men and women. You have inferred that therapy, in itself, is uncomfotable for men from nothing.
It doesn’t, it shows men in all countries reportedly committing suicide at a higher rate. You inferred that from nothing. Why are women’s numbers so much lower? They don’t succeed in therapy more. They do attend more. If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure? Where’s the massive number of women committing suicide. Surely you believe more women commit suicide? (More women attend therapy, therapy is a failure) We have a split on gender lines that outcome of therapy (we know are qual) do not explain. With sources please. It isn’t outcome, it’s income.
Not what I said. It’s just not “therapy” that is the “system” they’re being failed by.
You are right, men are being failed by a system though. Read some of the sources. Read the wiki on TM, you’ll find it. It’s a distraction from this conversation though, and given your reaction to the term TM, I don’t think it would be a productive discussion anyway. But the system men are being failed by has also been discussed for 30+ years.
Wrong question. The right question is “how are we failing women too?”
The systemic failure is what you were describing in your first two paragraphs in this thread.
Men don’t attend therapy at the rates you think they should. Men are highly resistant to what you are offering.
Your proffered solution to that isn’t to make your offering more palatable. Your solution is to blame them and tell them to suck it up.
The fact that men are actively choosing not to attend therapy at the rates you seem to think they should is prima facie evidence that therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men.
Instead of accepting, internalizing, and taking responsibility for that fact, the field outsources blame for it to men.
Me: “Little Jonny isn’t eating his vegetables.”
You: “Boys who eat their vegetables enjoy them about as much as girls who eat their vegetables”.
Me: “Yeah, but little Johnny isn’t eating his.”
You: “What did I just tell you? Boys who eat their vegetables report they like them at similar rates as girls”.
Me: “That’s great, but we aren’t talking about a boy who eats his vegetables. We’re talking about a boy who chooses not to. He doesn’t like vegetables.”
You: “He’s just experiencing social toxicicity. If he tried them, he’d like them.”
Me: “He has tried them. He doesn’t like them. And he’s getting pretty pissed off that you keep ignoring him when he tells you he doesn’t like them.”
You: “Nonsense. Boys who eat vegetables like them just as much as girls do. Science.”
Me: “Yeah, but little Johnny isn’t a boy who eats vegetables.”
You: “Right. Because he’s got some sort of toxic attitude against vegetables.”
Me: “Or he just doesn’t like what you’re trying to shove down his throat.”
You: “How many times do I have to tell you that boys who eat vegetables like them just as much as girls who eat vegetables?”
Me: “Whatever. Maybe we could try serving something that he might actually enjoy?”
You: “There’s nothing wrong with the vegetables, just keep serving them. When we get rid of his toxic friends, he’ll admit he actually likes his vegetables.”
Me: “…”
You: “I do wonder why aren’t boys eating vegetables as much as girls.”
/Scene
Wrong, the right observation is "reality doesn’t support my assertions.
When I said this you said I was victim blaming. They are, we agree. I said we need to get men into therapy and you got upset with me.
I’ve shown you a reason why men don’t go into therapy, you took some imagined offence. Please God listen. It is well discussed why men do not go to therapy, you only just learned what TM meant yesterday. Now is not the time for your to provide assertions, without evidence, for a concept you just learned about yesterday.
That’s called a lie. Do better.
You haven’t done that. Vegetables work for the people they work for.
Vegitables are much better than sitting at home chronicaly masturbating as you JAQed off. We have a society that pressures boys not to eat vegitables. It was foolish of you to suggest. It was harmful of you to suggest when the aim is to get boys eating healthy. That’s bad I would like to releave that pressure.
I like the healthy eating framing. We know healthy eating is just as benefital to little boys as to girls. We know little boys eat less healthy than little girls. We also know society puts pressure on little boys to not eat healthy.
It isn’t society putting pressure on little boys to not eat healthy, there’s just something anti-boy about eating healthy.
Do I have your position right?
Turns out Little Johnny doesn’t actually hate vegetables. Turns out all you’re serving is mushy green beans. Turns out he actually likes romaine lettuce and snow peas and carrots and spinach. But you’ve got it stuck in your head that mushy green beans are the only healthy option you can think to offer. Anyone turning up their nose at green beans is simply “unhealthy”.
There’s a bunch of therapy types such as:
Motivational Interviewing, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Trauma Therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, Psychiatry Sessions, and more
there isn’t just mushy peas. He is being offered green beans, romain, fennel, all the things.
This statement is false. Incredibly false. Harmfully false.
But, society tells him little boys don’t eat vegetables so he never trys Romain to find out he likes it.
Other men say that vegetables is as useful as staying at home masturbating. So he never trys Romain to find out he likes it.
Other men tell him all he will be offered is mushy green bean, so he doesn’t even know Romain was an option. He doesn’t try it to know he likes it.
I’m saying let’s get little boys trying vegetables. Let’s get vulnerable men, that would otherwise kills themselves, in therapy. Data shows it works.
Which is more conductive to little Johnny trying vegetables? Me saying we need to get little boys eating vegetables (how does he learn he likes romain without eating one, and vegetables are good for little boys (with provided link)? Or you suggesting it’s as useful as a placebo (not true), and he’ll only be offered mushy green beans (not true)? You want Johnny to discover Romain? Act like it.
I am curious. Which is the only therapy you believe I’m offering. Of all the therapies, which is the one? Why that one? With quotes please. I have mentioned one. But I didn’t even imply it was the only one. You inferred I’m only offering one from nothing.